The "Death" of Child Avies

[Kit Coyote]

I know this is an Ambrea wide rule change and there is little point protesting it, but I felt we out to have a thread to discuss, vent, and generally hob nob about it over tea and biscuits. Please keep it friendly since after all there is really little the Admins can do about it and I'm sure our Admins resisted it for poor Kathia's sake (smiles).

My one underage Avie I'm currently playing is about to turn 18 so he is not problem though I had enjoyed playing the rebellious teen so much I was going to propose a new more permanent teen alt LOL.

Since Jhulae is pregnant again (somebody needs to send Kit to the vet and get him fixed) how is this going to affect that RP? We going to say no more pregnancies or have the Fae stealing the children and hauling them off to Faerie to grow up overnight?

[Myyst Jewell]

*sighs and rubs her head* Like the rest of the Admins I was not present at the sim owners meeting, but I can tell this much from what i was told. The owners did everything thing they could do and then some. I have even spoke to a member of the "G" Team in world. Folks no way around it, One person filing a complaint, one child avi in an inappropraite RP and the Sim owners lose thier sims, that impacts them and it impacts us all. The time we spent, the money, the heart we all put into our RP homes. I know they tried ... and I know cause, I too did EVERYTHING I could to find away to Keep Kathia as a child, I love her to death, but in the end I bow to the sim owners decisions, simply put its not my money on the table.

Aine, I adore you, your awesome, but your wrong, Vara Posted the New rule proposal on the website, she sent all KM admins a copy of the proposals, and asked you to NC and send back your suggestions, that was your voice, do you know how many people responded? THREE, how many responses did were recieved regarding the child avi rules... TWO, both asking to outlaw them all togehter or ban them from any rp outside a safe zone. I know because i compiled all the concerns gathers from the NINGS and Admins for the sim owners to review and go over line by line by line... almost 500 of them.

Aine, like I said, I love you to death, you have done so very much not just for KM but RC but to say they/we didn't consider players wishes is so very untrue and so unfair, I dont agree with all the rules that were made, but I do know that they were all made with fairness to the players in mind, I hope that you stay, I hope that you find a way to still be part of a world that we are building, but no matter what you decide you have my respect and my friendship. *wanders off rather sad*

[Luna Barak]

I guess LL just want the sims to state out that child are not allowed to prevene further complains. It seems most a formal statement that a real thing, as the fact that they do not make investigation would show. Something like "smoke kill you" over a pack of cigarettes? maybe the example doesnt fit but ...
So yes Kit this thing could happen and will probably happen again somewhere - they ask the owners to anyway make clear their position against - I would say that maybe control and banning after bad acting (like in rl) would be enough instead to cut off child players - but maybe it is too a big amount of job for LL...
Really cant find a final position myself, I just hate the idea to have not more Kathia around.

[Kit Coyote]

(comments voluntarily removed from previous post)

I would say that is rather a bad example since there is nothing in this no child policy that prevents a disgruntled player from doing exactly the same thing in your now 'childless' sim. LL's rather pathetic no tolerance, no investigation policy actually encourages and rewards that type of behavior. So now we have the good child Avie players who by Kathia's example can be extremely beneficial to role play being put out because of the bad. But I am honestly forced to admit as Kit would, life is not fair.

[Tirilliel]

I totally understand the need to disallow child avatars from Karamoon. I also felt that child avi's were a touchy subject, to touchy that they could become dangerous for the sim owner. Even in Tarrund, with well played child avis present, there were still violent scenes that took place. Battles, raids, people coming in completely bloodied, and gruesome. Half naked fawns running around, Mer, malevolent creatures and so on. All of these things "could" have been considered inappropriate for a child avi to be around.

To me its completely ridiculous, as I don't think of the child avis as children, but grown men and women playing the role of one. So long as they aren't doing anything questionable that raises suspicions of their real life nature, I saw no real problem. Of course not everyone things that way, and its hard to know what player is going to be around on an off hand day where a child avi is seen watching someone walking with a severed arm into Tarrund and gets called it out as inappropriate.

Its seems the majority of child avis we did have were only about causing trouble and antagonizing adult players in character (of course what else should they do?) But then we were unable to punish them in any manner, there was no way to deal with them. But let them continue their childish rampages. I didn't feel most had much to offer Karamoon in the way of character play/plot went, and so I don't think Ill miss having child avatars around. To me Karamoon had always been a mature environment and I was never interested in dealing with the children avatars.

However, Kathia WAS the exception , and its because shes no longer able to role-play in Karamoon as a child avi that makes me regret the rule. Even if it was not our admins decisions in the final matter. I adored her character, her gentle and innocent nature. She knew the rules, she knew how to act and conduct herself. Its a shame that others have made region owners need to evaluate the safety of having child avatars around. If they had all been stand up players and characters as Kathia has been, then perhaps there would not be a ban on them now *sigh* I wish there could be an exception made, but that would not be fair to other children avatars.

I can only hope that Kathia will decide to grow up in character but keep her gentle ways and personality, and continue to do great things for Karamoon. But I understand if this inst what she wants to do. At least we have Kathias memory in Bentens great video of her. Sums up her greatness perfectly.


*huggles Kathia*

[Kit Coyote]

Well as a player who character regards himself as a protector of children, I've interacted with most of the child avies in Karamoon. Admittedly several are spoiled brats and troublemakers but that is the archtype they are playing. Many are not. The child avies I've worked with have almost all contributed to the RP environment and are perfectly natural part of the setting.

Some of this is overreaction I think but not much can be done about it. When it comes to protecting children we simply just throw common sense out the window. And this from a protector of children. :) Child protection laws are whats driving this but I think we are overstating the issue. It is not the purpose of these laws to prevent any fictional violence involving a fictional child character. If it were Harry Potter and most juvenile fiction would be banned. What is banned is gratuitous intentional violence to a child and anything sexual involving a child. So seeing someone walking across the square with a bloody stump of an arm or even engaging a teen in combat is not the issue. Torturing or sexually molesting a child is. Sexual molestation in any form is simply a nono in the sim and most torture occurs in places children are not allowed. But LL and Sim owners are having to deal with lack of common sense in the world as a whole on this subject.

[Estrella Canadeo]

Just one thing I'd like to point out because I've had this discussion IRL with a few friends.
The reason LL has such strict rules on child avi's is because some countries have actually viewed some of the incidents we worry about occurring as the same as child porn and thus have prosecuted people who are caught engaging in this activity as sex offenders who go to jail, have their life ruined, etc etc... it was a couple of years ago actually when one country in particular (I want to say Germany but I could be wrong) came down hard on SL and conducted some serious investigations that ended in convictions of their own citizens.
Do I think that's right? No, but it is what it is. I for one would rather someone acted out their sexual fantasy in SL, no matter how vile I may find it, with a willing adult than to leave them home alone with their actual children. But that's why I'm a libertarian I suppose.

In anycase, that's why LL has such strict rules. Because they do not want to loose members/customers and also they do not want to be liable with these countries that have such strict laws. In order to change it, you'd have to petition those countries. Not LL.

I for one am a bit disappointed, I've always wanted to RP raising a child and if I ever were to have the chance I may leave Karamoon to go through that RP and come back once the child grows up. The whole part of having the child is to go through the RP and that simply can't be replaced by an 18 year old acting 12. For one, I predict it will cause problems for the reasons Kit pointed out, and two... it's just awkward.

To throw out another idea... in Gor, which also has strict child avi rules for obvious reasons, a trend was starting where they would ask a character that already exists if they would like to be so and so's child, the pregnancy would be RP'd out, then when the birth took place the person they asked was already there and grown up but now would refer to the parents as mother and father. It's a bit of a time warp, but it worked for some people.

Anyway, it's sad to see... but I can see why it was done. I'll just have to be clever to make it work while still being in Karamoon.

[Kit Coyote]

We don't wish you to leave or grow up Kitling. Unfortunately it is not up to the players or even the admin team. LL is really forcing the situation onto the sim owners. If things continue at this rate, the only place you will be able to play child Avies is PG sims specifically for children. I have an alt that plays in a mature RP sim that is specifically for teens. Its a post apocalyptic setting and I'm afraid it will soon be closed by this mindset.

[Preist Heralas]

I know this will not come as a shock to many, but I have never welcomed a decision more than this one.
I would like, before being angrily rebuked to state that I'm not happy that the people with child AV's have been put in an awkward position. I am happy because I personally do not feel that a child AV can be played truthfuly with the modern values imposed on this medieval setting, I think that the fact that no one can so much as shout at or include a child AV in violent RP (Which lets face it, 90% of the RP is in Karamoon) That Child Avies detracted from the RP experience, having to be careful and cautious about what one said or did in the presence of a child AV did not do much good for the Erling Raiders while they were in the Tavern with their swearing levels at maximum and their calls for more wenches and more breasts now did it? The same can be said for my breif time as Preist of the Church. Child AV's and religion (Or should I say cookies and the bell tower) did not mesh, infact they repelled eachother so forecefuly that Venovara had to throw out a notice REMINDING people that 'Child abuse' was wrong. Now tell me people that when an admin has to do that that something has not gone wrong?
Kathia is a wonderful RP'er, dont get me wrong, I can appreciate the fact that playing a child can be done well and Kathia is living proof, however, and its happened in Naraka and it WILL happen here if the child avies were allowed to continue that there will come a time when Karamoons existence would come under the Linden's eye, and I cannot allow that to happen, nor can you. I urge you not to see this as a loss of truly great characters like Kathia, but the beginning of freedom, safety and assurance that Karamoon is taking all the steps it can to make this last and avoid discomfort!
Child avies and Kara have never and will never mix.
Thankyou.

(If you take offence, I want you to know that this was my rant, I just wanted to put it out there, if you feel the need to reply please do, but lets keep it at a peaceful level :P)

[Witchlord]

Heh, well Naraka never came under the eye of LL for child abuse, we had a griefer who's intention it was to have child sex in the sim to shut it down which we promptly notified LL with the names of the conspirators whom were all banned from SL (of course if anyone has had any dealing with professional griefers means absolutely nothing). Naraka has always been a no-child sim as simply there is absolutely no place for them in a prison, and while I agree with you on many points as I too have a hard time interacting with children with the characters I choose to RP I still feel it was an injustice to those who spent so much time on them. I would rather have seen far stricter guidelines set with a zero tolerance policy for not following the guidelines to the letter. Midian City has had child avatars from the very beginning without a single incident, it can be done, it merely needs to be monitored extremely closely.

[Myyst Jewell]

Aine, I am sorry for your loss, its always rough to deal with that, my thoughts go out to you and your friends family. As to the rest, I am not going to respond except simply to say that, I wish it were different.

[Kit Coyote]

The TOS is not that vague. There are many comments here that seem to think that just having a child avie in situation with combat, or seeing blood or hearing foul language constitutes a violation of the TOS and it does not. The TOS is dealing specifically with 'age play' the use of a child avatar in a sexual or lewd situation. Again I point out that your example is bad, a 'forced fantasy and bdsm sim by definition puts a child in sexual environment. I know cause I've played in those sims and I fully agree that a child avie in a place like CARP is totally inappropriate. However Karamoon is NOT a bdsm, rape or sex sim. It has areas where such play may occur but they are off limits to child avies.

My posts point out I understand the fears that the land owners have but I think it is a massive overreaction and we are losing players that do add considerably to the flavor and depth of the role play in the sim because of it.

I see such ridiculous comments as 90% of role play in Karamoon is combat. Man what part of the sim do you play in. I go weeks and months without having to draw a blade. The reason I play in Karamoon is because it is not constant battles and gore.

Getting rid of child avies is freedom. To do what? Turn the sim into a hack and slash playground mixed with rape and sexual orgies? What other type of play can you not do because of child avies? Tell me how many sims have you seen closed down because someone sweared in front of a child avie? Hell even at the Wild Dances which Kit and Vasa tend to cram full of sexual innuendo we manage to allow children to participate and without major problems.

You're happy cause you don't have to restrain yourself in the level of gore or swearing you do (even though that is NOT the problem). Great for you but there are sims out there where you can go and do that sort of thing to your hearts content. To remove your minor inconvenience you are punishing not just those who want and enjoy playing child avies like Kathia but all those like me and Aine who find the interaction with children and family RP extremely enriching to our characters and the roleplay environment in the sim as a whole.

Behind all this is puritanical witch hunting, fear and censorship on the part of LL, overzealous governments and people who want to reduce the world everyone lives in to child proofed version of Sesame Street, plain and simple. Any thing to protect the children no matter how senseless and stupid it is. No children are being harmed and sickos that want to live out their child porn fantasies don't come to Karamoon and we don't welcome them.

You can deceive yourself in thinking that this type of censorship is better for the sim and your entitled to your opinion but for myself I'll call it what it is. That is my rant.

[Kenn]

Wow ... lot of very passionate feelings in this topic. You'd think we'd done something worth screaming about, like voted Obama into office as President...

Kit - I agree with you that comparing Ambrea to a BDSM region is not a good comparison at all. I can guarantee that LL would differentiate between "sexually themed region" and "medieval role-play region".

How about we do something positive instead of just ranting ... Does anyone think they have the ability or connection to get a statement from Linden Lab reflecting that they will not shut down the region if a child avatar happens to accidentally be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Something like an official statement would REALLY help allay the fears of region-owners.